Hey podcast listeners. I am Taryn Elliott, director of client success and marketing at LISI, and I will be your host for this episode of LISI’s All the Things podcast. 

I am joined on this month’s episode of One More Thing by Laura Toledo, Director of Business Development and Marketing at Nilan Johnson Lewis, and someone I had the privilege of serving on the LMA Midwest board with for many years. Laura is a rock star and as outgoing LMA Midwest Immediate Past President, I wanted to know that one more thing that Laura wanted to share from her time serving the Midwest Region. We talk about developing leadership skills, making connections, and how hybrid work also led to hybrid legal marketing programming. 

Here is One More Thing, this week’s episode of LISI’s All the Things podcast. Check it out.

Taryn:

Thanks for being on.

Laura:

Thanks for having me.

Taryn:

For those of you who don’t know, Laura is the director of business development and marketing at Nilan, Johnson and Lewis. And is also the immediate past president of LMA Midwest.

We were just talking a few minutes ago. You have served… Because most of the time, when you serve in a president role, you have previously been serving on the board of the region before you end up taking on that president role. For me, I know I served on the board for five years total, treasurer-elect, treasurer, and the three years with the president. I had been asking you how long you served on the LMA Midwest Board and what number did you think you came up with?

Laura:

I didn’t actually do the math but I think it was 2017.

Taryn:

2017?

Laura:

Yeah, I’m terrible at numbers. What is that?

Taryn:

Seven years? Five years?

Laura:

Yeah, that’s about right. Whenever we regionalized was when I got tapped for the board. I’m very well known in communication so I always played the member at large role and did that. Finally, I got into the president track. But I think I’ve been volunteering solid since 2008 in whatever capacity. This will be my first break in 10 years.

Taryn:

I find that after you’ve served in the presidency role for three years, it’s a good time to take a break.

Laura:

It’s a great time to take a break. But actually, I find myself wanting to get more involved at the local level, oddly. It’s a part I’ve missed, being closer to HQ, I guess. I miss the local vibe.

Taryn:

Yeah, I get that. Well, this is One More Thing, our opportunity for someone to share maybe something they didn’t get to share at a presentation or one thing they learned. I will open the floor up to you. Having served in the LMA Midwest president role for three years and is currently the immediate past president, what’s that one more thing? That one more thing you want to share with everybody before you are out the door riding off into the sunset or at least back home at the local level more often?

Laura:

I think I’ve held this philosophy since I started volunteering but volunteering through LMA was always a way for me to get skills that I would not get necessarily at my own firm. And doing this 10 years later, I still feel very much grateful to be able to hone skills and learn new skills through LMA. And it’s why I’ve been doing it and I can’t wait to do it again. I guess I always relish the opportunity to learn. I love learning. I will always continue to learn. And being the president for LMA Midwest really stretch my skills, especially my leadership skills. So I’m pretty grateful to have that opportunity.

Taryn:

That’s how I felt about LMA too. I was in a small firm, so I was generally the only marketer and they don’t bring in leadership training for one marketer. So LMA really offered me the chance to get to know people, to take on leadership training, to get to use my skills in a different way than what I was doing at the firm all of the time. And really, like you said, helped me grow into some other things that I wouldn’t have been able to do otherwise.

Laura:

And I think if you’re in a business role, it shows your attorneys that you’re living what you’re telling them. I guess I’ve always found my LMA network is very much our attorneys growing their own network. And I found that volunteering just gives that extra element of trust. It’s that now you’re working with those people, you’re not just meeting them at a conference or in a regional event. You’re working with them day to day and you build these deeper relationships and now you’ve got all these people that you can call on if you need them when you need them in your career.

Taryn:

Yeah. And that’s one thing that I always liked too is if I didn’t have the answer, I could generally know who would have the answer so I could reach out to them and ask the question or ask for a recommendation or whatever it might be that was needed at that moment. Again, being a department of one, maybe two, there’s not always somebody to bounce ideas off of but it’s nice to be like, “Hey, can I take you out to coffee and pick your brain about something?”

Laura:

Yep. And now I’m in the director role so I get to utilize all these contacts I’ve made over the last 15 years and bring them in and use this network that I’ve built at the benefit of my attorney. So I was able to use, I’m a name drop here, sorry, but GrowthPlay. I’ve known Tasneem and Alycia for years and I was finally able to be like, “Hey, they do this thing that we need,” and bring them in it. And it was great. They did a great job. My lawyers are still talking about it. So it’s proven fruitful in that way too, is that I can leverage this network of awesome people and bring them in and give my attorneys access to different resources that I know.

Taryn:

Yeah. And a lot of those instances, maybe you’ve… Even for GrowthPlay, I’ve seen them speak several times. I would go see them speak if they were talking about how to watch paint dry and I would get something out of that conversation. So having the ability to then experience it, some of which I never would have. A lot of the really great experiences I had with GrowthPlay were when one of them would come in and do an LMA Midwest training. So shout out to GrowthPlay for all of their help. When LMA Midwest was a chapter, they would come in and often help facilitate our leadership training. And I loved that and I loved having that resource and being like, “No, I’ve heard them speak.”

Laura:

Right. Yeah. It’s a credibility thing. I saw them, they were good, now I can offer it. Because it is hard to be like, “Well, we know you but we don’t know what you do.” So being able to see them in the LMA context, it’s just another layer of “I’ve seen them, I can vouch for them.” So it went over like gangbusters. It was great. They did a great job and I think it really benefited our attorneys. So it’s just a great network to have. I might actually miss being in leadership now.

Taryn:

I think you’ll enjoy the break because the relationships don’t go away but then eventually you might get the itch again. So I know you took on your role as Director of Business Development and Marketing a couple of years ago, I feel like.

Laura:

No, in August.

Taryn:

August. Oh, okay. Not that long ago.

Laura:

No.

Taryn:

How did your work with LMA kind of help facilitate that transition?

Laura:

Oh man. I mean I think the only way I’m in this role I think is because I’ve had quite a bit of training through LMA and a lot of it is through the actual volunteer leadership where I’ve gotten leadership roles and really been able to live that in a different context. But it must have been 2019, I was graced with the Smithbucklin Leadership Institute which is sort of a game changer. And I mean, it was so worthwhile and it was a whole year program and LMA pays for the whole thing and it just gave me so much confidence, especially as a leader on the younger side. I think you just can’t get that skill. Like you said, your firm’s not necessarily going to pay for you to go to get leadership training. LMA did. I think that’s the whole reason I felt confident enough to want that job is because I felt confident through the program that LMA paid for. It was fantastic. And funny enough, I’ve made lifelong friends from that program too.

Taryn:

Well, I think it’s a lot of things. The more you do it and the more practice you have with it, the easier it comes down the road.

Laura:

That’s true.

Taryn:

So coming in out of the blue and just being like, “Oh, now I have to be confident or be decisive or whatever the thing might be.” And you’re not used to, it can be a little daunting. But then to get to a point where you’re like, “Oh, okay, well I’ve done this, or I know what I would do in this situation or I’ve practiced this, or we’ve been working on this for a while.” It’s a lot easier to then be that person all the time.

Laura:

Right. It gives you real-life skills for not only volunteer leadership but for your own professional development. I just can’t… I think my firm sees that too. I’m in LMA and they support that because it does give me that professional development element. And it’s so specific to our roles that between the programming, between the random yearly opportunities they have, to the network that you make, it sort of supports you from a lot of different angles I think.

Taryn:

Yeah. So you were there for the change from programming being mostly in person to being a lot of virtual. And I know that when I was on the board, that was a conversation we were starting to have is how can we reach more people who aren’t necessarily in a big city? So can you tell me about some of the benefits that have come out of doing virtual programming?

Laura:

Yeah, I think that we had talked a little bit earlier about the benefits of sort of COVID and being able to work from home and having that kind of be, I don’t want to say a privilege, but now we can do those things. And I think actually it’s allowed us to connect really well as the Midwest region because Midwest is one of the biggest regions geographically. We’re in a big space. And if you’re in the Midwest, I think you how different the cities can be among us. But it’s really allowed us to get out of that box and connect with each other. So I think we’ve actually formed really tighter friendships among the local groups because you were sort of forced to have those interactions and now it seems to be a tighter network in that way. So I think it was a big benefit. I just got to know people I probably wouldn’t ordinarily have a lot of time with.

Taryn:

And it’s a lot easier to make those connections when everybody’s virtual whether you’re volunteering or you’re doing programming. I know when I first joined the board, all of the meetings were in Chicago which for me is a three-hour drive. I’m actually headed to Chicago tomorrow and I’m like, “I haven’t been to Chicago in forever but very familiar.” But that was a big commitment. I remember having that conversation about, “Well, okay, how often do I need to go to Chicago? And how much am I out of the office?”

Even when I was a city group leader which is what we called the local steering committees at the time, there would occasionally be leadership training or get everybody together. And that was how I met people in the other cities. Otherwise, I would never have met them. Whereas now so many virtual meetings are happening that I am assuming a lot of the board meetings are happening over Zoom which makes it a lot easier for people anywhere to be involved, less of a travel commitment, and making it a little bit easier for the local leaders to get to know each other as well.

Laura:

Yeah, I mean I remember board calls when we were just over the phone and there was no video component. I mean, you think back to the days where you were on the phone for two hours. So I think it’s nice to be able to see people virtually and have more of that connection even if we couldn’t be in person. But to your point, we got to know each other a little bit better because we had more opportunities to connect like that. And now I have friends, more friends in Chicago and Ohio and it was just a deeper level of connection because you had more opportunity to do it versus just being stuck in person.

Taryn:

Well, and it has benefits that you can take back to your job too. Depending on the size of your firm, yes, you can take people out in your geographic area to discuss questions or whatever you might have but sometimes there’s a conflict of interest. So it’s a lot easier if you’re like, “Oh, well I’ll just call this other person in this geographic area,” where we don’t compete at all and we can have a much more open conversation without having to worry that we’re competing for the same business and we’re going to steal each other’s ideas or whatever.

Laura:

Yeah. I also think it brings a level of inclusivity that we didn’t have. To your point, we had city groups that were in little pockets where there may or may not be a critical mass of people. I know Ohio was always kind of a good example. Columbus and-

Taryn:

Cincinnati and Cleveland and those were the big ones but then there’s also Akron or a couple smaller ones too, I think.

Laura:

Yeah. So I feel like this now we can include everybody and then from there you can make local connections. So now there’s different layers of connection. You’re connecting across the region, you’re connecting your local groups, your states, whatever your interest is. So I think we’ve really been able to find different ways of connecting people that aren’t necessarily related to geography anymore which I think opens up the possibility quite well.

Taryn:

Yeah. Especially I always felt like the shared interest groups got attention but it was a little bit harder to engage with them. And I feel that over the past few years I’ve definitely been seeing a little bit more come out of those because it’s easier for people to connect.

Laura:

Yeah. I think going into the hybrid, I think that’s where we’re at now, it just presents more opportunities, more ways to narrow down focus while also being inclusive. You can have top-level conversations and then you can break up into smaller groups and really dig down into detail. So I think the opportunity is vast. So I think we weren’t sure if it was going to go away. What are we going to do with all this? And now it’s like, “All right, it’s here. How can we really leverage this and get value out of both in-person and virtual?”

Taryn:

Yeah. Just like work is going hybrid. Same thing. Because as much as I love the virtual events as well and there’s so many good things about it, I’m going to be honest, occasionally like but I want to see everybody. I kind of miss the 30 minutes of lunch before the presentation when I got to see people face to face and catch up. And who’s going to be there? And “Oh, I haven’t seen you in a couple months.” And I mean now it’s more like a couple years. But-

Laura:

Yeah, there is that. Although I feel like I do come with a different perspective because I was out during cancer treatment for about nine months and to be able to work hybrid, it saved me from taking off work. Things happen and I would rather be able to work than have to take time off because my kids get sick or I’m sick or… So I guess I like the flexibility but it also comes with a lot more intention, right?

Taryn:

Mm-hmm. And that’s what I… I like both. I like having the options that we can do both. And I think that there’s a really happy place for a lot of people in the middle. That understanding it doesn’t work for everybody to come be in person all the time. I remember being at Indianapolis lunches and somebody would be like, “I’m from Evansville, Indiana.” I’m like, “That’s a three or four-hour drive.” There’s not a good way to get here from Evansville. You were spending your entire day coming to a one-hour presentation and a 30-minute lunch. But that’s what you had to do.

Laura:

It says a lot about us, doesn’t it?

Taryn:

Yes.

Laura:

Right? I mean [inaudible 00:18:05] I guess but… Yeah.

Taryn:

But as a leader then I was thinking, well what can we do to better serve that person? Because she either gets programming twice a year because she has to drive there or she doesn’t get it at all. Whereas now in this model, she can still get programming in person twice a year if she chooses to drive up and take advantage of all of the benefit of being in person and doing that but she can also get program throughout the year that in a way that she couldn’t.

Laura:

Yeah. We really diversified. And I think the board became a lot more cognizant of that as the years went on with regionalization. And I think we have two or three people who sit on the board right now that are not part of a local group. And I think that says a lot about how we’ve been able to connect them in now so that they’re part of… It’s hard when you don’t have a local group. I’m in Minnesota. So Minneapolis, that’s really easy. Most of us are downtown. But to give… We actually had somebody come up from Rochester, Minnesota which is a two-hour drive to Minneapolis. But again, we’re drawing them in some other way and then they’re more willing to show up because they know the people there are quality. So it’s been nice to see a lot more diversity when it comes to the folks who are showing up or doing volunteer leadership. That’s great.

Taryn:

Yeah. Well, we’ve kind of talked about a little bit of what’s changed. Do you have any insights on what we can see in the future?

Laura:

That’s interesting. I’m pretty well known for my technology and digital workshops but I don’t know. I’ve been seeing this trend for a while and I think it’s just going to go backwards. So I think I’ve seen my attorneys, they’re very good on custom messages so we don’t spend time sending email blasts. We spend time writing individual notes to our clients. I think for a while everybody was on social media. There’s something else. Something else is coming and I can’t say exactly what it is. Maybe it is TikTok but I think it’s going to be less digital somehow.

Taryn:

But it’s holiday season. It’s November 17th. And I’ve heard that there is… For so long everyone got away from paper cards and went to digital cards and I’m hearing that there’s a little bit of a swing back where people… Because that’s the way to set yourself apart is a paper card because everybody else is doing a digital card and now you can highly personalize a card or whatever. Which marketing directors all over the place are like, “Oh no, paper cards are a lot of work.” But if you and your team are willing to put in the work, there can be a big payoff for that same, more broadly. Same thing with direct mail. I’ve been reading that that’s been making a little bit of a comeback because it’s not as expensive as it used to be because no one’s doing it. But also it kind of creates an opportunity where you can reach people and it’s a little less cluttered than say Facebook ads or whatever your chosen platform is.

Laura:

Yeah. We actually stopped doing any kind of holiday cards before I started at the firm. So when I got on board, I was like, “Really? I don’t have to do this.” It was great. And now we’re actually moving away from holiday gifts because our client base in our firm is so diverse. So half of us don’t celebrate Christian holidays so we’re going to eventually move the gift program somewhere else that makes more sense. And I don’t know. It’s nice and it’s part of the reason why I love my firm is we like to think slightly differently from different ways. So I don’t know. It makes it more fun because we get to be really creative in how that gets delivered and it’s not so traditional.

Taryn:

Yeah. So now that I’m on the agency side of things, kind of similar to that, I’m like, “Oh I can do this, or I can say this, or I can include a link to hot chocolate in this email because it’s a little less formal and we can be a little more fun.” But the holiday card in and of itself can be… There’s definitely a line to walk about what to say and what to do and when to send it. And we’re deep in holiday cards right now but I like to kind of think through what can we do that provides value to people as well.

Laura:

Yes. But beyond us. What’s valuable to our clients or whoever we’re sending it to.

Taryn:

And it doesn’t have to be valuable-

Laura:

Monetary,

Taryn:

I’m giving you… Well, monetary, or I’m giving you this template. Or like last year we did Spotify Christmas playlists. Each member of our team got a different genre and then we create… So there was a classics list or a country Christmas or bluegrass or nineties pop Christmas songs. So everybody created a playlist and when we rolled it, out to me, I was like, “This has value to people.” It’s not just Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays or whatever. It’s like, “You need a playlist for while you’re wrapping presents? Here you go. Pick one.” Also, our team just had a really good time pulling them together and doing the artwork behind them and everything. But I think it’s that broader thinking outside of the box and instead of just being a really traditional message, is there something else we can do?

Laura:

Right. Well, you connected with people and I think it showed a little bit of your personality and that deepens the relationship.

Taryn:

Yes, definitely a lot of personality in that project.

Laura:

We actually did that at the firm right at the beginning of the pandemic because we had a music club and every week we would have a different theme and people would submit music and then we would send out a playlist and it was just so much fun to see what people chose. It said something about their personality and so we actually have all those playlists and of kept them around for the firm. It was a great thing.

Taryn:

I have been talking to our social media manager and I’m like, “We have to remember to repost those.” We put them together. You can still listen to them.

Laura:

Yes.

Taryn:

And I think we rolled one out for… Was it 4th of July? I think we rolled out a 4th of July playlist too.

Laura:

Nice.

Taryn:

So yes, I think we… Oh we had a New Year’s playlist as well.

Laura:

Oh, I like that.

Taryn:

Mm-hmm. You can find us on Spotify under LISI. Just look it up. It has… There’s album art for all of the playlists. We created custom covers-

Laura:

Okay. Oh my god.

Taryn:

… that are very, very… We’re all represented on each of our covers for our playlists.

Laura:

Oh, awesome.

Taryn:

I also very much enjoy having an in-house graphics department.

Laura:

Right? Yeah, that’s super helpful.

Taryn:

Yes. I can also troll people much easier that way. They’re like, “Hold on 30 seconds.” And I’m like, “Oh that would’ve taken me 15 minutes and looked much worse.” But thank you for inserting our coworker into that giant lobster costume or whatever it was that we were talking about.

Laura:

Ooh. Yeah, I do like a good Photoshop swap.

Taryn:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I will refrain from some of the best ones. Those can stay among our team to protect our coworker that we were seriously trolling.

Laura:

Yes.

Taryn:

Which you and I have kind of touched on it but my coworker said something the other day that I’d love to close with, get your feedback on. A lot of people are like, “Oh being virtual, you don’t get to know people or connect with people quite as well.” And I don’t necessarily think that’s the case. I think if you’re intentional about it and you’re sometimes face-to-face or sometimes messaging, you can. To the point that when we were preparing this year’s holiday card, one of my coworkers is like, “I feel so seen.” And it wasn’t because of what I did, it was because of what our graphic designer did when designing it. But I was like… I mean that kind of flies in the face of everyone who’s like, “You can’t be connected in that way.”

Laura:

Yeah. I sometimes think that that’s a cop-out because it’s more difficult to connect over video and it is more energy-draining. But you have to try. You have to try harder and I think that’s hard for people is when you’re already trying hard but I’m kind of with you that I don’t think the video has to take anything out of it. Like you said, you have to be more intentional and put the effort into it. It does. It makes the difference.

Taryn:

I agree. And I’m thankful we had this because while this is all being audio recorded, I liked being able to see you face to face behind the scenes to do this which we wouldn’t have gotten to do otherwise. And I definitely think it adds a whole other element and I’m happy to see your bright smiling face. People at home can’t see that but I can. And so I’m happy to see your bright smiling face. Thank you so much for being on One More Thing.

Laura:

Thanks for having me, Taryn.

Taryn:

You’re welcome. And hopefully, we can catch up again soon. And thank you to all of our listeners for joining us on One More Thing this week and check back wherever you get your podcasts to get One More Thing and all of our other podcasts. Bye, everybody.

You have been listening to All the Things, the podcast from Legal Internet Solutions Incorporated where we bring you all the things. Whether it’s three things we learned, hearing from a legal marketing insider, an ask me anything session or that one more thing we’ve been dying to tell you all month long but couldn’t, that’s All the Things. Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you get your podcasts. And you can join us for the live events every Friday at 12:30 Eastern on our LinkedIn channel for our live stream where we bring you All the Things live.