In this episode of On Record PR, Gina Rubel goes on record with Scott Love, the president of The Attorney Search Group. Scott is a high-stakes headhunter for international law firms recruiting and placing partner-level attorneys, groups, and facilitating law firm mergers. Scott is a graduate of the United States Naval Academy, is a former naval officer, and has been in the recruiting industry since 1995.

In case you are not familiar with The Attorney Search Group, it is a legal recruiting firm that recruits and places partner-level attorneys with the top 100 and 200 law firms on a national basis.

“We grow law firms and accelerate attorney careers.”

This episode was recorded during the coronavirus pandemic, and many of us are working from home.

Welcome Scott.

Scott Love: Thanks Gina. It’s great. I’m glad to be here.

Gina Rubel: I’m so happy to have time with you again today. It’s been a while. Last time we saw each other was in San Francisco pre COVID.

Scott Love: Yep. Different world back then. Right?

Gina Rubel: Fantastic. We were at Susan Freeman’s conference and you emceed masterfully.

Scott Love: Thank you.

I want to talk to you today about recruiting in the legal industry. I know you work in B2B, in professional services in general, and in recruiting, as it relates to where we are post-COVID, or in the age of COVID.

It’s an interesting time, isn’t it? I think there have been some changes. I was thinking about how this has especially impacted law firms in terms of recruiting partners. Like you said, that’s all I do. I move partners from one firm to another. I think this crisis has gone through three different phases.

The first phase was the “deer in the headlights” phase, where people were in shock. They couldn’t believe this was happening. The second phase was that they were able to adapt. They were able to pivot to virtual interviewing, and some ancillary benefits came out of that, which were that deals kept going forward. In many ways, they were expedited. I actually set a record in April, May, June and July. I set up an average of ten, first-round meetings each month. I’d never done that before. It was easier to get people together to block out one hour of time. They don’t have to block out the fact they’ll be in the same physical room together. Firms were able to pivot and go to virtual meetings through Zoom or other similar platforms.

The third phase is the phase of mastery, that some firms have actually accomplished, where now they’re pounding their chest saying, “Look at what we’ve done. We’re onboarding partners virtually.” Those firms that haven’t been able to do that and might’ve hesitated or second-guessed themselves, asking, “Can we really do this?” I think those are the firms that are going to be left behind.

Gina Rubel: That’s really fascinating. I want our listeners to know you’ve been in the recruiting industry since 1995. This is a space you really understand well. You’ve set this record.

Since we’re not out of the woods yet with COVID, are they interviewing for future hires? Are they bringing them on now? Are these firms that have gone through furloughs and layoffs, or are these certain firms that have continued to thrive through the pandemic and economic downturn?

Well, I think the area that I focus on are for partners, and these are people that earned those client relationships. In theory, those clients will port over and move with them to another firm. As for associates and staff, I don’t know much about that. That’s not an area that I work in. Keep in mind, these are the people that are bringing in not necessarily topline revenue – even though they are bringing in top line revenue – they’re bringing in a cadre of loyal clients that will follow. And when law firms think about what lateral partner recruiting really is, it’s client development. You’re bringing in a trusted partner or advisor. You’re bringing in someone who’s already earned the trust of about a dozen C-suite relationships. That’s what you’re really getting with this.

To answer your question about, are they hiring for the short term and the long term, it’s always the short term. The reason is most law firms can’t see past the next 12 months because they’re not making widgets, they’re doing professional services. It’s all based on cash and fees. That’s where their focus is, and that’s not good or bad. It’s just the way it is. They’re looking at: What is the area they need to focus on today? What are the gaps that they need to fill? I found that some of the placements that I’m seeing right now are much more specific. They’re much more focused on solving a problem strategically, where in the past, I would have law firm leaders that would say, “Yes, I’m interested in your partner with that $5 million book of business. By the way, what does he do again?” It’s good revenue, but now it has to have much more meaning. It has to be much more specific and precise in terms of the solution that the partner is going to solve.

Gina Rubel: On the PR and crisis communication side, we deal with how do you communicate if a law firm hires or brings on a number of partners, when they may have furloughed or laid people off? I think that it’s really important that you say, what are the gaps solving the problems and filling the needs. Those things don’t go away no matter what the economic situation is. That’s very helpful information. It’s important for both law firms and potential lateral partners to hear that it is still happening amidst a great amount of change.

Let’s say you value a lateral partner’s book of business at a million dollars, just using a round number. I’m sure it’s much higher than that most of the time. What is the realization percentage that they typically bring over to a law firm? Is there some formula?

I would say the average realization rate that I’ve seen – just my thumbnail sketch in my mind – is probably about 93% in terms of what they actually get paid from their clients. In terms of porting over, some people say only 50% of partners actually bring the clients that they want. That’s why you have to look at indicators of the likelihood that if this partner comes over, how do we know with certainty that the book is going to follow? Those are the things I try to pinpoint when I’m looking at a partner. Tell me about your client relationships. For example, I’ve got one partner whose big client just got promoted. Tell me about the quality of that relationship. “Well, he was the best man at my wedding.” Okay, I know that relationship is going to port. If I see a partner that moved five years prior, how did that work when you moved before? “All of them came with me.” Well, we know the likelihood of them coming over is very high. If I see a partner that has been with the firm for about 20 years, sometimes they have done a good job of institutionalizing those clients, and those clients might not port. They did a good job, and it’s going to be hard for them to extricate those clients out of that relationship just because they’ve been there for so long. It’s a case-by-case scenario. That’s why I try to work with the partner to look at their business plan. I’ve seen a lot of business plans. I’ve even written articles on how to write business plans that I’ll share with people I’m working with, where I’ll say, “You need to think about a business plan, but we need to show this new firm that you have thought about who it is you’re going to target, what conferences you’re going to speak at, what panels you’re going to sit on, that you have a proactive and intentional approach to developing business, and to increasing the likelihood of those clients coming over.”

Gina Rubel: I think it’s fascinating because as one who no longer practices law, not every client that says they’re going to come is going to come, so looking at the psychology of the relationship is so important. That just answered so many of my questions.

Other than virtual recruiting, how have the COVID pandemic and the economic downturn impacted legal recruiting?

I think it has after that first phase that I mentioned, once people figured out that we need to make adjustments to how we recruit. And, I’ll give a plug for now it’s, the National Association of Legal Search Consultants. It’s a trade association of legal recruiters. People like me. I’m on the board of directors, and I’ve been a member of it for many years. There are two things about that group. One of them is that we have really good parties. It’s a very social group. Everybody enjoys each other. It’s very collegial. We’re competitors, but we also help each other out. We’re frenemies. The second thing is that during this time of crisis, through Stephanie Ankus, the executive director, Dan Binstock, the president, and all of the other wonderful colleagues on the board, there’s been some great leadership in that group, and it’s brought our community together.

The law firms, who are also members, will have their recruiting teams attend conferences. Sometimes, you’ll see the chairman of a big law firm attend as a guest at our meetings because they know that they’re in front of the people that are the doorway to new partner introductions. We’ve been able to do surveys both to legal recruiters and to the law firms to find out what’s really going on and share that information with our members. I think that gave a lot of the law firms strength and hope that we are all going to be okay by knowing that 30% of all law firms at the beginning of the crisis are still planning on going forward with partner recruiting. That number started to increase as time passed. I think the perspective of this crisis has shown law firms that they need to adjust, and they can adjust. For those that have, it’s given them a lot of confidence, and that they can actually do Skype, Zoom, or other types of video interviews and make offers to partners that they’ve never physically met where day one is in their home. It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Gina Rubel: It really is. I think one of the things I’ve seen, and I believe you’ll agree with me, is that a change has been the adoption of technologies by senior levels of law firms where they were not comfortable with these technologies.

Scott Love: That’s right. What do you know about every lawyer out there? They’re risk averse. They’ve been trained to be risk averse. Well, now they don’t have a choice. They have to change, and they’ve adapted. They found that they can. I think it really forced law firms to pivot. You’ve seen 10 years of innovation done within about five months.

It really is. I don’t think a lot of lay people listening know how hard it is to get law firms to make change. You recently launched a podcast, The Rainmaking Podcast. I presume you’re teaching your laterals and other professionals how to do business development and provide client service?

Yes. What I do on The Rainmaking Podcast – and we have it on Apple Podcasts and all the other different platforms – is to give content to those in a business development capacity in B2B sales, or in professional services, ideas and action steps that can help them grow closer to their clients and get new clients. Years ago, I used to own a training company. I would train recruiters, and I got out of that so I could focus solely on legal recruiting. The idea came to me during the time of the crisis where I knew that people needed some hope. I had a dormant podcast that had been dormant for about four years, but was still getting about a thousand downloads a month.

People would still be listening to that. I did a special show just on how to build strength of resilience, and how to build your resilience muscles, because in a time of adversity, that’s what people need. I was fortunate to go to a four-year college that was built on adversity, on building strength, and building resilience muscles. I knew a lot about that, and I was able to share some ideas. As I was doing that, I thought if there’s one thing that I would speak on every day and not have to worry about getting paid for it, it would be on client development. I decided to resurrect that podcast and pivot a little bit so that it’s on one topic: rainmaking. Now, whenever I talked to a partner, if he or she doesn’t want to move, that’s okay. I can at least give them value. That’s going to benefit them. They can stay at their firm forever. If they listen to my podcast, we’re doing two shows a week. If they listen to the podcast, they can benefit from that. The hope, of course, is that they think of me if they ever want to move, but I don’t even care about that. I just like learning about this and talking to people like you as a guest on my show, and also putting content out there that helps people.

Gina Rubel: You just did something that I find fascinating. You said, “I went to a four-year college.” What you didn’t say is you went to the U.S. Naval Academy, and you’ve served our country because you’re so humble about it. First of all, I want to thank you for your service. When we teach lawyers, we tell them to really understand what’s important to the audience. To me, I think your education and your service is as important as what you do because it’s provided that leadership and that level of trust that people need to come to you and say, “I’m ready.”

When you’re working with these lawyers who are ready to make a lateral change, what do you tell them about business development?

I tell them that it’s not about you. It’s not about the new firm you’re joining. It’s about your client. Here’s an example of that. I had one partner that decided he wanted to make a move, and he was very clear and very specific. He had a very clear motivation about why he wanted to move. It made sense. He had a good book, and he knew the clients would most likely follow him. He gave me a profile of the ideal type of firm. I did research, and I presented him to four firms, and he looked at three other firms on his own. This is over about six weeks. As he was going through his round of meetings, and everybody knew he was taking meetings with other firms, there’s no surprises. There’s nothing wrong with that. As he narrowed it down, he got to two firms and those were his top two choices.

And both of those were firms that I had brought him as options because I knew exactly what he wanted. He asked me, “Between these two firms, Scott, what do you think I should do?” And Gina, I’m never going to answer that question because I don’t want to be blamed if it doesn’t work out. I put it back on him, and I said, “What do you think is best for your clients?” And he said, instantly, the name of this firm and sure enough, that’s the firm he chose. He went out and he’s been a real winner over there. It’s been a very good placement. It’s brought me closer to the leadership of that firm because I brought somebody that’s a real feather in their cap, and it really is a chair of a big group for them now. I think that’s the perspective a partner needs to have if he or she is looking to move. I think there has to be a good reason.

It can’t be about how much money you’re making when you’re with them. When you’re with the right firm, the money is going to take care of itself. You need to find the right firm that has the right sort of platform that you need, the right sort of practices and how they’re going to interrelate with you, and the right sort of people that you’re willing to work with? What’s the culture like? You don’t even know what the culture is until after you’ve been there for two years. You want to talk to people that have joined that firm that have been there about two years and ask for those people on the interviews and then eventually that’s the potential. I think the perspective I’d recommend if a partner is thinking about moving is why do you want to move? What problem are you looking to solve? Can you solve it by staying there? If you can’t, then it’s time to move and focus on your client’s needs. When you have that type of perspective, you put yourself in an optimal scenario that hopefully has the highest likelihood of bearing fruit.

Gina Rubel: Which makes sense. It’s about the client. They think it’s about them, but it’s really about what’s in the best interest of their client.

Scott Love: That’s right.

What are the top reasons partners choose to make a lateral move?

I would say it’s for one of two reasons, it’s either leadership reasons or strategy reasons. Everything can fit in one of those two buckets. “I don’t trust my leadership. I don’t trust my colleagues. I don’t trust the other partners. I’m at a firm that if I bring in a client, I might lose the origination credit because somebody else is going to get that client.” I’ve heard that before. I think that a good reason is the trust and my perspective. Like you mentioned, I went to the Naval Academy, I’ve been studying leadership ever since I was a kid. The Boy Scouts from Bobcat to Eagle and did the whole thing. Then go to Annapolis. And after that I’m on a ship, I was third in command of a Navy ship. I was the operations officer. I got involved in intel and all that. I had a top-secret clearance.

Then, on my short duty tour, when I was 24, at the age where you do know everything, I was a leadership trainer. This is around the time in the early nineties. The Navy had an initiative called total quality leadership, which was a derivative of the management concepts of W. Edwards Deming, who was a pioneer in the quality movement in the 1950s, and those concepts, I learned those. I taught those as a trainer to thousands of military officers, senior enlisted and civil service workers. That job evolved to where I was a Lieutenant JG. I was an organizational development consultant on active duty. I learned a lot about how organizations are built and how they thrive. That comes into my search practice. When I’m dealing with law firms understanding how do they function? How do they thrive? There are some firms I’m not going to work with because I just know I can’t sell them.

I know they don’t have a thriving environment. They’ve got poor leadership. I think getting back to the partner, thinking about making the move to leadership reasons or strategy reasons in terms of the business development case, sometimes they’re stuck because of a merger, and they’re conflicted out of work, or the firm might have evolved to where they’re no longer a priority partner for whatever reason. That’s not good or bad, it just is. Sometimes, it’s risky to move. It can be dangerous to move from one firm to another. There has to be a good reason, especially in the age of COVID. I think there has to be a lot more purpose behind it.

Gina Rubel: There’s a reason that I think I perceive that I’m curious if it’s even accurate because I don’t work in your space, nor do I have that expertise. There have been times where I’ve seen people move because they want to be the head of an office in a new market for a firm. My instinct was that it was more ego.

Scott Love: Sometimes, I would even ask them, “Why do you want to be in that role? What is it that you’re hoping to accomplish that you can’t accomplish today in that role?” Some people just love to build. For example, I’ve got a deal right now. I have a client that has a void in a certain area. They want to make this particular office to be a hub and a priority focus area. For this particular practice. I have a partner that is overshadowed by other people’s expertise. He himself has built a potentially good practice, but he can’t build that within his firm. By going to this other firm, he can then be in a position of leadership to build. I think that’s a good reason to move. If it’s best about the ego, if he needed a little bit more affection, get a dog, you know, if it’s just about the ego.

I think that’s not a good reason. I’m not judging people. I talked to a lot of people in this business, and I can just see through the hubris, and I can see the smartest people in the world making bad decisions because it’s based on personal hubris. That’s what I try to do is try to cut through all that. Why do you want that? Why do you really want that? For some people, I’ll even tell them, “I don’t think you should leave. I’m in the green grass business. I’m in the business of telling you it’s better somewhere else, and I think it’s going to be risky for you to leave your firm.”

I was going to ask you that. Do you ever tell people that you don’t think they should leave?

I will. I’ll say, “I don’t think it’s the right time for you,” and I’ll even tell them, “If I’m not the right headhunter, let me know. I’m happy to refer you to other people that can help you better than I can.”

Gina Rubel: Kudos to you. I’ve done that often, even in my own company. Sometimes, your culture and that individual’s culture is not going to fit, and they’re not going to trust you and hear you.

Let’s switch gears for a moment and look at the law firm perspective. What advice do you give the law firms that you are serving, who are seeking recruits in terms of diversity, inclusion and becoming more diverse?

I think there has to be a good story. The reality is some firms today don’t have good statistics in that area. They don’t, but they are making the change. They’re putting forth the effort. I have some candidates that are diverse candidates that want statistics, and they want to know, “How do I know that this is the kind of firm that’s going to be good for me and my own unique concerns?” I’ll say, “I don’t know, but let’s see if we can get the head of diversity on one of the initial meetings with you so that you can decide.” I recommend not looking at what they’ve done in the past in terms of statistics and where they are in terms of statistics. Look at what they’ve done in the past in terms of making the change, because it does take a while for the change to catch up.

I even suggested that there was a candidate that had a similar ethnic background of this person. Let’s see if we can get that person on one of the initial calls. If you’re comfortable with that, with me, submitting you to them, why don’t I see if I can get that person on the initial meeting, and the two of you can talk offline so that you can get a real firsthand perspective of what’s it going to be like for you?

A lot of times, Gina, I don’t know all the answers in that area, but I’m able to earn the trust, and I try to,  so that they trust me to at least just start a conversation. Let me tell them that that’s important to you. One client, I do a lot of work with is a top 1300 attorney firm. They gave me a call with their chief diversity officer. I spent an hour with her learning about what the firm has done in terms of initiatives. That gave me good talking points that I can share with prospects that I’m speaking to. It’s impressive to see that firms are genuine and sincere about this, and they really want to make the right kind of change. Not just because it’s good for business, but because it’s the right thing to do.

What can those law firms do to more successfully attract and retain a higher percentage of their laterals, as well as those diverse laterals?

I would say attract and retain, attract. You’ve got to have a congruent and authentic narrative of distinction, and it can’t be about culture. Everybody’s got great culture. One thing I’ll do with my clients and especially a new firm, is that I’ll ask them this. When I ask a law firm leader, “What’s distinct about your firm that you can say is unique to you that no other firm can say about themselves? What’s different about you, that nobody else can say about themselves?” And you would think that I’ve asked for a moment of silence because they have to sit and think about that.

Gina Rubel: You’re practically the one who has to market that.

Scott Love: That’s right. It’s really about getting to them to understand that marketing begins with distinction. Recruiting is marketing. It amazes me how many big law firms don’t have their marketing department and the group recruiting department talking to each other because they should. If you think about lateral partner recruiting, every part of that is marketing.

Let’s say 10 people interview with your firm, and only one of them ends up going there. That means that you have nine people that chose not to go to your firm or you chose not to go to them. They’re talking about you, and bad news travels faster than good news. Every conversation and interaction you give them, the lateral partner questionnaire – most people call it the LPQ – which really stands for long painful questionnaire, errors on it. Things that don’t work. Asking the same question twice, spelling and typos, and not having a graphic designer look at that, not having a logo on that, and having it be black and white or no color. That’s a marketing document also.

I think in terms of attracting partners, the firm first needs to understand what it is they’re all about. This kind of ties in with retaining them. It’s one thing to get them to sign on the line and join your firm. It’s something else to keep them there beyond five years. What’s the meaning of your firm? What is your firm truly all about? This is basic organizational development, one-on-one values, and vision and mission. Most law firm leaders have not thought through to ask themselves: What is our vision of our firm? What’s our mission, and what are our core values? Some firms do. When I talk with the chairman, if I have a client prospect that I have to pull this stuff out of them.

“What would you say are your firm’s core values?” They’d say, “Well, let me think about that.” Sorry. It’s a waste of my time. I can’t sell it to perspective laterals if you yourself don’t know what’s at the essence of your organization. If you don’t understand that you’ve got to go back to leadership 101. That I think is the key to retaining top talent, Gina. It’s understanding leadership. There are some firms that I cling onto them like a bear hug because I don’t want to lose them, and they understand what leadership truly is. Those are firms that I can sell to candidates out there.

Gina Rubel: Brilliant. Every professional service provider who has thought of making a lateral change should listen to this because you provide such valuable advice.

Before we end, we have about five minutes left. I want to get to know you a little bit better. So tell me a little bit about you Scott, the professional speaker, the MC, and the artists.

I’ve got a great wife. That’s the first thing I’ll say that tolerates me. She’s great. She’s the sweetest, most beautiful woman I’ve ever met. I’ve got two really cool kids. I’ve got a boy. I was married before. My boy is 19. He’s an international model – skips a generation. He’s represented by IMG. He’s been working hard at it for about four years.

When he was 16, he was ranked as one of the top 10 models of New York’s fashion week that year. He’s on the map and never wanted to go to college, and I’m fine with that. I remember he asked me, he said, “ Dad, are you okay I don’t go to the Naval Academy?” I’m like, “Why would you ask me that?” He said, “Well, that’s what you did.” I’m like, “Oh, I get it.” I said, “I talk about that because that’s what I did. All you need to do is follow what you want and do your best. If you do that, I’m proud of you.” He’s carved out a nice, big career for himself. He’s in the infancy of that, but he’s done work for Adidas and Hot Topic. He’s been in five different gigs for Hot Topic. He was the model on their page for a day during their happy goth day celebration. You spent the day at their office, their corporate headquarters in LA while it was happy goth day, Paul Mitchell’s 40-year anniversary. He’s done some pretty interesting things, and I’m so proud of my boy. He’s six-foot-one, but he’s still my little boy.

Then, I’ve got an eight-year-old little girl that loves horseback riding. She’s gotten into that. She’s a smart kid. Both of my kids are great. I like to play golf. I am the most romantic husband in the world because I bought my wife golf clubs. That wins me that award. We’re able to play family golf together. I pay with watercolors. I try to work out. I used to work out for vanity but now it’s for health reasons. Life is good. I’m active in an Anglican church here in Richmond where we live. On the board of our trade association, like I mentioned, I just try to connect and stay plugged in with as many people as I can.

Gina Rubel: Well, I will share this. My husband tried to buy me golf clubs. I told him to take them back, so I won’t be joining you out on the green. It’s not my favorite sport. I don’t have that level of patience, but God bless your wife.

Scott Love: She got her first par three weeks ago. It was just absolutely thrilling. She’s been bitten by the bug, thankfully.

Gina Rubel: God did not bless me with that type of patience. We’re just going to skip that from him.

Scott Love: During the crisis, it’s been very helpful. Where we live in Virginia, the governor has allowed golf to be played socially distant early on where you couldn’t take karts. You had to walk. I’ve played over 70 rounds of golf since mid-March. Mostly nine-hole rounds because it takes so much time, but I’ll go out there, and I’ll play at 7:30 in the morning, be at my office back on the phone at 9:45 a.m. and try to get some exercise and some sunshine in there.

Gina Rubel: Good for you. I’ll do it in the garden.

Scott Love: There you go.

I’ve asked a lot of our guests about their favorite books and what books that they would recommend that listeners read, whether it be just a fun book or an inspirational book. Do you have any you’d like to share?

I would say there’s two that have been very helpful for me. The first one is called “Pitch Anything” by Oren Klaff. He’s a guy that works in high stakes investments where he’s on a lot of pitches, and he talks about communication in a way I’ve never heard it conveyed before. In terms of frames, the dominant frame wins. How you convey a frame that captures people’s attention, lets them feel safe and gets them to listen to you. Which if you think about what I do, I make a lot of calls to partners. My job is to earn the trust of those who have been trained to be untrusting. I’ve had to learn unique ways to communicate. The other book is more of a sales book and for anybody in client development. I think it’s great. If you’re communicating over the telephone, it’s called “Smart Calling” written by Art Sobczyk. He’s become a close friend of mine.

He’s been a trainer in sales for many years. I’d say those are probably two of the top books that have made a difference for me. Then I’d say there’s a third one because I used to struggle with this. I was in the bookstore probably about 15 years ago, and I was in the business section. I saw a book that was on how to overcome self-sabotage. The title of the book is called “How to Overcome Self-Sabotage” written by Pat Pearson. I saw that in my life, I’d always choked at the very end right before I’m on the finish line. I’d be a guy that would trip six feet before the finish line in the marathon. It helped me to correct some issues related to low self-esteem and me not reaching my full potential. That was a pivotal book.

I think another one is a book called “The Prayer of Jabez,” which talks about asking for a blessing in your work. That’s something I’d been trained on growing up in a real poor family that the poor keep getting poor, and the rich keep getting richer. We’re going to be poor, but we’re always going to be proud. I remember hearing my dad say that, and I thought, “I don’t know if I agree with that.” I don’t think I want that. A lot of it was just changing the way I thought about money and success. I realized that making money and creating revenue is a byproduct of creating value and realizing that it’s okay to earn when you’re creating value to people and there’s nothing wrong with it. I grew up where that was kind of wrong. That kind of helped me in my journey. I think that’s probably more than you want to hear.

Gina Rubel: No, these are fabulous. In fact, those are four books that no one else has shared yet. I think at some point, I’ll be compiling a list of all of our guests and all of the books that they’ve shared.

Scott, I’m thrilled you could join me today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, and I’m sure our listeners have too. Where can people learn more about you and how can they get in touch?

I have a podcast called The Rainmaking Podcast, and you can go to iTunes or Apple podcasts and just type in The Rainmaking Podcast. That’ll take you there. My website is www.attorneysearchgroup.com. That’s for my legal recruiting practice. I recruit partners for big law firms nationally.

We’ve been talking with Scott Love, president of The Attorney Search Group.