Melissa is Chief Client Value and Innovation Officer at Ballard Spahr, and leads a team of more than 40 professionals across practice innovation, data and analytics, and client service. Emilia is the Director of Client Value Engagement and is leading the charge on the team’s client-facing value initiatives.

Together these amazing women share a passion for the business of law, business operations, and supporting professional women. You won’t want to miss this outstanding conversation!

Robyn:

Hi everybody. Welcome to LISI’s News + Views + To Do’s livestream. My name is Robyn Addis, I’m the Chief Operating Officer and Chief Marketing and Business Development Officer at LISI. I just had a brain fart for a second and couldn’t remember my title. Today, I’m so thrilled to welcome my friends and former colleagues, Melissa Prince, who’s the Chief Client Value and Innovation Officer at Ballard Spahr and Emilia Levisay, former colleague from marketing who moved over to Client Value and Innovation and within the past six months was just promoted to Director of Client Engagement. Is that right Emilia? Did I get that right?

Emilia:

Client Value Engagement, but–

Robyn:

Client Value Engagement. I knew I missed a word, so super proud of her. Side note. So welcome ladies. Thank you much so much for joining us.

Melissa:

Thank you so much for having us.

Robyn:

Is this like a little bit weird, Emilia, to be watching me on a livestream, have this conversation with you?

Emilia:

It does feel a little different, but honestly, this is better.

Robyn:

Okay, good. Well so ladies, you know the format. I’m so excited to have you Melissa, back on. I know we had you on when the show was sort of in its infancy now we’re, I think, over two years later at this point and we continue to interview amazing guests, such as yourself, about what you’re doing at your firms and sort of your views on the legal industry and what we as business professionals in and around law firms can be doing. So I’m excited to hear more from you again today. And Emilia, again in your role you’re, as you’ve grown with under, you know, Melissa’s mentorship and sort of how you are adding value to the client value and innovation team, I’m excited to hear about that. So I think I know what you guys do, but maybe like, let’s like level set for our audience. Melissa, could you start by telling us a little bit about your role and your team that you oversee?

Melissa:

Sure. So we have about 27 people [correction: 40 people] on our team now [correction: 40 people] and I guess I’ll just talk about the numbers a little bit because we were talking about that this week and I think it’s really fascinating. We have six former practicing lawyers on the team and we also have six people with finance degrees. Four people on the team in the past couple of years have started to their MBA programs, part-time MBA programs, which I’m really proud of ’cause I think it’s a testament to their commitment to their education and also I guess the commitment of the team to really, you know, want them to focus on their growth, to the business of the law, and really also a testament to us wanting them to grow as people and we want them to grow professionally.

Then we also have two team members that are enrolled in Wharton graduate programs in business intelligence and the team has, about 25-plus years in combined experience and legal pricing. And so the team is really focused in three main areas: Client relationship building, which I would just define as you know, matter management, understanding client insights and being able to communicate that. Then this advice and counseling part of the role that we have, which is, you know, helping clients with advice relating to counseling on pricing and billing practices and matter management and talking to them about legal technology and pricing and legal operations topics.

And then the second really bucket of what we do is involved in the value part of things. Pricing and staffing and budgeting and budget monitoring and tracking, and then doing post matter reviews. And then there’s a third big bucket that I would define as innovation, which is really focused on the custom-built technology that we’re involved with which is no code technology. And we can talk about that a little bit. Also business intelligence and analytics. And then we’re now venturing into AI and machine learning for process efficiency and trend analysis. And so those three buckets are really what the team does on a day-to-day basis.

Robyn:

So Emilia, tell us a little bit about your role, and especially in light of your promotion this year, which again, just gonna plug how proud I am of you.

Emilia:

Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I mean it’s been a really exciting year for sure, but really the past, I would say two years have been a very different world. Obviously Covid has kind of pushed us into doing things differently, trying out new things. A little bit of that is my role. So when Covid started, we needed to figure out a way to connect with clients a little bit more efficiently. Have, you know, have someone embedded in their teams, not just with the lawyers, but how do we get them to use technology? How do we get them to want process efficiency? How do we get our attorneys to know that these things are available for them? And that’s kind of how my role evolved, would love more people on my team. But we’re doing pretty well with just two team members right now who support specific departments within the firm.

So we have them split up, but they also, in addition to that, support specific tools. So they’re not only, you know, responsible for departments within the firm, they actually have more of like a product manager role, as well. So the role continues to evolve. There’s something new every day. We’re moving, Melissa said, into a little bit more consulting, you know, helping the attorneys, and not just the attorneys, but the clients with setting up processes and efficiencies. And that’s a little bit what my team does now to, you know, a smaller extent. But yeah, my role is completely client-facing. I work with our attorneys constantly, but there have been times now where the legal work isn’t necessarily the day to day, it’s more how do we set up business operations and it’s really my team communicating back and forth with the client and then we loop the legal teams in as necessary.

Robyn:

That’s so cool. And also just side note, I know that that type of role is something that you were always looking for, so I’m excited to hear that’s like actually what you’re doing.

Emilia:

Really manifested my role.

Robyn:

I know, I appreciate it. So for those of you who don’t know, Emilia and I used to work together at Ballard’s marketing department and I, you know, went on to LISI and Emilia went on to Melissa’s team and you know, we’ve just sort of charted our own path. So like I said, I’m, I love seeing your trajectory and your growth and I promise that’ll be the last time I say it.

Emilia:

To that end though, I’ve had really good examples ahead of me. You know, both you and Melissa, like, I mean.

Robyn:

I know you had the best!

Melissa:

The very best, very best.

Robyn:

Okay, so that was a lot of news in and of itself in terms of what you all do and how your function has grown and expanded, especially in light of the past couple of years. But talk to me and our audience a little bit about what is going on, what sort of exciting wins have you had recently? What new projects are you taking on? What news do you have to share?

Melissa:

Well, so I guess, so I guess what’s kind of setting the stage in all of this, I wanted to just talk a little bit about the pandemic has made things a little interesting, and I think it’s because the pandemic really broadened the acceptance of the role of innovation and technology and the delivery of legal service. And so, you know, so the spend in technology just throughout the legal world really increased. And we saw it in our law firm, but we’ve also seen it throughout the industry as a whole. And I was looking at something recently that was saying that overall it went up about 7.1% in the rolling 12-month period between 2020 and through the end of 2021. And I’m sure that when the data for 2022 comes out, that we’re gonna see an overall increase for 2022 as well.

And I think even with the looming concern about inflation and a slowdown in the legal market that we feel right now, and the fact that firms are more focused on cutting costs going into 2023, we’re still gonna see that, you know, I know we’re, we’re focused on budgeting right now, and there’s, we’re trying to hold costs firm as much as we can, but we’re still very, very focused on spending in areas that we think are very important to us. And technology and innovation are areas that we are very focused on. And so I think we’re gonna see that throughout the industry as a whole. And so we’re gonna see a continued trend in 2023 of continuing to focus on spending in areas that matter, like innovation and technology. But we’re also seeing a continued demand for, you know, well we’re seeing that there’s a decline in legal service, and so the demand is declining and that we’re seeing that technology vendors and the big four accounting firms are now competing with us for legal work.

And so as a trend, I think what’s really interesting is that there, you know, September the news was that EY just basically got rid of, or is in the process of getting rid of, there’s gonna be a vote on, you know, getting rid of their auditing business, which means that they’re gonna move towards just having a consulting business and that means that they’re gonna be competing for law firm work. And I just think that means that we have to step up our game, and so we really, you know, as we think about law firms, what’s interesting is that all full-service law firms basically offer the same services and in order to effectively compete, we need to focus on what sets us apart. And I think that what, you know, as we’re thinking about our value proposition at Ballard, the thing that we think about a lot is that we provide really high-quality legal services, but that the other thing that we’re doing really well is the focus on business solutions.

That’s what our team has been doing and, you know, the focus on delivering efficiency, and also on enhancing transparency and predictability and containing costs. And that’s what our business solutions do. And so that’s really what we’ve been focusing on with our clients. And so one of the big projects that, you know, that I’ve been working on recently with a new client has been on a new project, it’s actually a consulting project that I’m really excited about, which is to look at a client’s historic legal spend and to figure out, you know, by area of law throughout the United States, what the cost of that historic spend has been and to really make and to help that client going forward to determine, you know, what firms to hire in what areas and to determine team structure and budget and to really help the client figure out what that looks like going forward, which is really exciting. And that’s something, you know, I’ve done bits and pieces of that before, but not in a holistic way.

So we’ve been, you know, so what’s been really fun about that is we’ve been able to do, you know, to pull all of the historic litigation tracking, do a bunch of competitive intelligence analysis and pull company profile information. It’s a company that has grown pretty rapidly and they’ve, through a bunch of acquisitions, has, you know, has purchased a series of about 30 or 40 different small companies. And so we’ve been doing a bunch of business intelligence research on all of the companies that have been purchased. And so holistically doing all the business intelligence research on that company and pulling all the information together has been really, really interesting. And so then making recommendations going forward about what, you know, on, based upon litigation history and spend patterns and all of that, like what should happen going forward is gonna be really interesting. And yeah, so I know you’re gonna ask me a question.

Robyn:

Sorry, I was just gonna, I was just gonna say it’s interesting if we think about, you talked about EY and, you know, going after law firm type work, but now law firm Ballard have really fleshing out this robust business solutions function and a consulting arm of that. Do you think, what do you think that means for client law firm relationships or client-lawyer relationships, I don’t know, over the next whatever period of time? How is that, is it going to solidify? I’ll just ask my question more bluntly.

So you talk about, you know, you’re helping this client figure out sort of how to hire firms or providers or whatever moving forward, and from once upon a time when I was in-house at a law firm, you know, talking about there would be panels of lawyers or law firms or, you know, pools or whatever that large companies would draw from. If firms like Ballard are able to embed themselves not just as legal professionals, but also business solutions professionals and firms, is that going to more deeply ingrain the relationship to drive more legal work? You know, is it just sort of self-perpetuating? As I’m saying this, I also feel like this is obvious, but I don’t know, maybe it’s not, I don’t know.

Melissa:

Well, so, I do think that it will more deeply ingrain the relationship, but I also do think that it requires us to figure out how to do legal work better and more efficiently. And so, for example, I don’t think, I think, if I’m consulting for this client and I know the historic cost per hour and the client has been using smaller firms, I’m gonna have to figure out as a larger firm, as a Ballard, or you know, as a firm that has, you know, that as a larger firm how to more efficiently manage the client’s work going forward using technology and a better team structure in a more leveraged way. And so I think that we, I think we’re gonna have to figure out how to manage different types of work differently than we ever have before.

So I think maybe it does mean that, you know, we as a Ballard get more of the client’s work because we have a deeper relationship and we understand the client’s business. But I think it also means that we have to understand, based upon the type of work, how to more effectively manage it in a different way than we ever have before as well. So I think it cuts both ways. I think that we then have, that because we understand the client’s business, and because we know the type of work, then we have to figure out, you know, what technology to use and we have to figure out what team structure works to drive, you know, to drive the work in the right way so that we provide the most value to the client.

Robyn:

So, Okay. So Emilia, I have a question for you. So being on the client-facing side of, you know, some of this business solution work and this consulting work, what do you think the biggest, how do I wanna say this? What do you hear from the clients as the biggest sort of benefit to having a department like Ballard’s ingrained in that way? You know, what do they, I’m trying to find the right words. It’s not coming out as articulate as I would like.

Emilia:

Yeah, I understand. So I think it’s really interesting and going back to what Melissa said about the buckets of our team, or our department really. So we have a whole team dedicated to data analytics, who is overseen by Lisa Mayo, who is a director. And then we have another team led by Jim Boyer who is solely focused on practice innovation. So really I feel like our clients can use our data analytics experience in addition to this practice innovation piece, which is really skilled developers with kind of the, my team bridging the language gap, you know, between like technology and legal and then just business operations.

So what I’ve seen so far is clients are using technology, so E-billing systems or a way to track certain information that eventually needs to go to their attorneys, but it really is, they just need to track it internally, like some sort of organizational process. And my team’s able to step in and say, “Hey, if you’re sending this to our attorneys eventually, how about we just set something up with you? How about we set up an online portal where you have a document library and task tracking and you know, a way to manage your properties and it’s yours.” You don’t necessarily need the attorneys to help you set it up, we can work with you.

My team’s time is non-billable. So that’s always an advantage. And they appreciate that because they’re like, thank you, you know, we only have two people, or we only have a team of five and it’s, you know, we’re completely overwhelmed by organization, or we don’t have, you know, a very robust document structure. And we set up these very simple things for them that they can use and really just on their own, they don’t really need anybody else. And I think just like having them use these little pieces of technology is already a whole new world. So then creating some more efficiencies related to some of the trackers Melissa’s talking about. Another example is instead of focusing on, you know, legal project management, we are transitioning into these business tech solutions.

So a true business technology that is one of the, I guess the wins, I know we’re probably gonna talk about wins eventually, but one of the wins that we’ve had recently is the success of our, it’s a license tracker, a business license tracker that we refer to as licensing. And really it’s for the clients to use as they see fit. My team’s there to make some customizations to meet their process, but really that’s for them to use. And then if they need legal help, which in most times they will, there’s a team that’s structured that can step in at any moment and it’s not, you know, all partner time or all, you know, senior level, associate time, it’s legal analysts, you know, where the billing is fairly manageable, especially depending on the client size. And we’re just trying to work with them to make sure that they’re better organized.

It’s not, we don’t go in selling the legal service, it’s more like, can we just help you set up some organization for something you needed? So I think that’s, that’s been the most interesting from the client perspective too, because it’s really been driven by the clients saying, we don’t have organization, we need help. We need something and we don’t wanna pay an arm and a leg for a vendor to set up something where then we still need to set it up to, I mean, we know, we’ve bought many legal technologies and then it works, but it’s out of the box. There’s so much more customization that needs to happen. And working with a vendor, I mean, it could take a long time.

Robyn:

You know, so here I’m having this interesting thought because we have a similar sort of experience, completely different universe of work that we do at LISI and marketing work and all of that stuff. But where I think we have similarities between our teams and where I understand the value that your team is bringing is because you are adding value in a way that is intrinsically for the benefit of the client. Like you, I think you just said it, Emilia, you’re not coming in being like, here’s the 17 things you can buy from us. It’s, we wanna help you be more efficient, it’s gonna do all of us better in the long run. We’re gonna be able to serve you better and provide better solutions. And how do we work with you to make that work? How do we help you? And that is where, in my experience, and I imagine in your experience and the lawyers that you work with, that’s where the, the deeply ingrained relationships come with your clients because then they know that they can trust you to bring a solution that is of value to them because it is of value to them and pretty much for no other reason. So, that’s awesome.

Emilia:

And then we have the data and analytics to help make it more efficient. So it’s just, it’s a full cycle. The more we get clients to use some of our tools, the more we’re able to use data related to that and then we can set up better processes and better tools to help certain industries. So it’s really, you know, as the more feedback we get from clients too is always helpful, but it really is like a full circle, like really true relationship.

Robyn:

Yeah. So I’m gonna say this because I don’t know, I think we’ve sort of conflated views, or News + Views, what is it? Before we get to the like the to-do’s, is there anything in the news or the views sort of section that you wanna make sure that we, we touch on before we sort of talk about prognosticating for the future and what we should all be doing?

It’s okay if the answer’s no, we’ve talked about a lot. We’ve covered a lot of things.

Emilia:

I think what’s been interesting is how, honestly, often our team has been in the news. I mean, not to like plug awards and things like that, but the work we’re doing just generally to better the firm has been really incredible. I mean, we just won a really amazing award related to our diversity and inclusion reporting. I mean, it’s another thing, like having that data, being able to present it to our clients in an efficient way, especially clients who truly care about that and we’re able to put in their goals, show them how we’re meeting their goals and that’s just an additional service, you know, free to them. It’s not, you know, it’s not, there’s no real setup. There’s nothing that we need to do to modify it. It’s just the hours are what they are and we’re able to show our clients what we do.

Melissa:

Well and here’s something that wasn’t in the news that I think is like, this is like the thing that’s most exciting to me of all the things that we’ve been working on this year. We created an internal tool that was part of a dashboarding project that we were working on this year. And the reason why it’s exciting is it was our first foray into trying to use AI to figure out, through one of the uses of technology, to read data and to make observations and recommendations relating to data. And it worked and we were using an outside vendor to help us do that, to basically look at the data and to create algorithms that, you know, then made these observations and recommendations and we kept having vendors go out of business. And so we had to basically figure out how to create these algorithms ourself and we did it. And so what’s amazing about that is, this is now something that we know how to do.

So I see all, all sorts of potential use cases in future in many different ways. And so I’m excited, you know, in the next couple of years to see, you know, we are using it for a dashboard internally, but we can use it for all sorts of client facing dashboards in future. And so I’m excited about that because I think we talk about AI and legal a lot, but I was at the CLOC conference this year, you know, talking about client facing technology and I didn’t, you know, and there was lots of mention of AI, but the majority of the AI use cases I was seeing were in for E-billing purposes. And so I don’t think we’ve gone, you know, much further past that yet in legal. But I think there are tons of opportunities to be able to do that. And once we, and once we, you know, there are lots of interesting tools like Kira for example, that are using AI or other machine learning processes, for example, in, you know, like corporate due diligence products. But if we can get beyond, you know, the known use cases that we have, there are so many different places that we can use it in really interesting ways. So that’s really exciting.

Robyn:

So that, I think that does lead very naturally into sort of the to-dos because you’re sort of already saying if we can kind of move into, you know, this next level, it’s going to open up so many opportunities. What other sort of to-dos do you see, whether it be for your team internally or for, you know, people? I mean there’s really I guess multiple to-dos you could offer, you don’t have to have one for everybody, but like your internal team or you know, your clients or the lawyers that you work with or other business professionals like your yourself? ‘Cause I do, other than just being a huge fan of both of you, you know, I think what you’re doing is genuinely exciting and cutting edge, which is kind of exciting in legal when nobody wants to be at the bleeding edge of anything. You know what I mean? So it’s exciting to see what you guys are creating. So what do you see as your sort of to-dos for either yourselves or for any of those audiences?

Emilia:

I feel like my to-do list is pretty long, so.

Robyn:

Fair, I know.

Melissa:

Well so I think, I’m just thinking about to-dos in terms of like, there are lots of internal to-dos, but I’m thinking about ways that we can all be working together and ways that we can benefit our clients. And so I think from a, for example, from a technology perspective, I think that the biggest benefit in legal is for law firms and marketing professionals and vendors to all be, you know, getting together and kind of, you know, having conversations about ways that we can be collaborating better to advance some of the initiatives that we care about and really be thinking more innovatively, whether it be from a technology perspective or otherwise, you know, to be moving the industry forward. And I know that that’s a really vague statement, but I feel like other professional services, organizations have moved quicker than, than the legal services industry has. And we’re kind of, we get stuck in our ways. And so I’m just thinking about using technology as an example, you know, and using AI as an example, you know, there are all sorts of things we could be doing with technology that we haven’t.

You know, E-billing vendor, you know, there are all sorts of E-billing vendors out there, but law firms aren’t working with them. They’re working with clients. And if law firms were having conversations with clients and E-billing vendors and we were able to, you know, and we were able to figure out how to bring law firm data into E-billing vendor technology that would make a difference with clients. And it’s the same with diversity and inclusion data. You know, if law firms started to get together and have conversations with one another about, you know, the data that they were willing to share with one another and they started talking to vendors that might work together to, you know, to honor that data and share it, be able to share that data with clients that could make a difference, you know, that that would move the diversity, we’d be able to move things forward from a diversity perspective.

And I think those are the conversations that need to happen that haven’t been happening to date. Everything has been very siloed and compartmentalized. And so I’ll be the first to say like, I’m willing to start having these conversations and I know Emilia is willing to have these conversations, and members of our team that care about these things are willing to have these conversations. And Robyn, I know you’re willing to have these conversations.

Robyn:

I know I’m sitting here salivating over all the data you must have, like, oh, how could we use that to make it better?

Melissa:

And how can we start, like how can we start the conversations in the organizations that we are in and you know, the industry organizations that we’re in and how can we I guess open up the, like, breakdown the silos I guess…

Robyn:

100%

Melissa:

‘Cause I think that needs to start happening.

Robyn:

Yeah. Yeah. I really genuine genuinely was sitting here thinking as you’re talking about exactly as you said, breaking down those silos. Like there’s so much that could be done if, just take it, you know, to 30,000-foot view. There’s so much that could be done if just at home internally, internally within an organization, you could break down some of the barriers and some of the walls, which I don’t think exists with malicious intents. I just think it’s, people are thinking myopically, right? And so if we, the more that we can forge communication, I give this actually this advice to anybody I mentor ever. Like if I have an introductory conversation with you, the third thing I probably say is you need to talk to people in all departments. You need to make friends in all departments. You need to learn what they do and how to work with them because it will make your job better, it’ll make their job better and you guys will want to work together forever.

Emilia:

I confirm that this is something that you said.

Robyn:

Exactly! I mean and that’s, I think that was sort of the key to my own sort of success so far, but as you’re talking in this sort of context of this conversation, you know, you as a department and as leaders, I know both of you personally, you have sort of the keys to all of this information and you genuinely wanna make things better. So like how can we work together from finance, from IT, from HR, from whatever, how can we make all of these systems sort of, or processes or communication lines work so that we can do a good job for our internal clients, the lawyers, which ultimately helps them do a better job and helps you all do a good job for the actual clients of the firm. I will get off my soapbox. Sorry, I just got really excited.

Melissa:

Yeah. I was like, what can we do with CRM? How can we create a huge CRM system that incorporates all of this information?

Robyn:

Melissa, you know what we should do. I know, and we said that last time too. You know what we should really do, the three of us? I’m gonna say it here right now. I don’t wanna, well I was gonna say we should create our own tool. I’m not looking to create something from the ground up, but honestly we should, we have such a brain trust of information. Any CRM vendors and service providers who are watching this, just know that you’ve got three really excited and nerdy and brilliant people on this call who really know, you know, how could make a CRM really robust in the end, and vital to an organization because we’re not there yet. We’re just not there yet in legal at all.

Emilia:

I mean a good example of that partnership really is, and I guess one of my to-dos has really been partnering more with administrative departments to see what data they collect, see what they wanna collect honestly, because we have the ability to do that. But CRM, related a little bit, is their experience information, all this legal experience and it’s just sometimes just sitting in the minds of our attorneys. So we’ve been working on a deal tracking tool that right now is pushing to the CRM. So, I know. I know, I know. Really missed out, Robyn. No, I’m just kidding. But, and right now we’re starting on a version two of that. So you know, another I guess to do for us is to never be stale. Like if we push out a tool, it’s very unlikely that that’s the end all be all. It’s just as soon as we get resources to do, you know, an upgraded version of that, that’s what we’ve been focused on and that’s kind of where we’re at with our deal information, among other projects. But that is definitely one of them.

Robyn:

Yeah, I did miss out, Emilia. That sounds exciting.

Emilia:

I know, you would like it. You would really like it.

Robyn:

Such a nerd. Nobody believes me when I tell them, but I am the biggest nerd. Oh ladies, I love you so much. Thank you for joining me today. I really appreciated and thank you. I have to say thank you so much for also sponsoring my little passion project, the #FollowFriday Conference. I’m so excited to have Ballard’s client value and innovation team be our executive sponsor of the conference, which is, I’m going to do my own plug March 8th, 2023 in Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania, which is just west of the city, registration is open. So checking out our agenda was actually just announced last week, it’s a really exciting, robust agenda and I feel that people are really gonna get a lot from it. So again, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your support and sponsorship of it because you guys have been cheering me on from the beginning and so I really do appreciate that.

Melissa:

Can’t wait.

Robyn:

Really awesome. So thank you everybody for tuning in today. If you are watching this on the replay, thanks for watching the replay. If you’re listening to the podcast, thanks for listening to the podcast. We have new livestreams almost every Friday on LinkedIn around lunchtime eastern, so around 12:30 typically, unless I have a crazy call that I can’t move. And then check out our livestream replay on our website, www.legalisi.com or you can check us out wherever you get your podcast to listen to the audio So thank you. So guys, whoa, thank you so much guys, and I will be talking to you soon.